The Most Important Topic-What DM do we want?!

[nerafim]

This is the most important issue for us right now if we want to do this "revive DM again" thing...again: What kind of game do we want to play?! I've been meaning to write this since the start of us doing the forum and OCTGN, but I joined in months later, and sets were already added, but we really need to break this down right now before going further with the sets. Since I assume a lot of this is not just about "better DM platform" but about reconnecting with the game we all enjoy, or the fun days we had back on KP, it's very important that we stop for a while now and think this through.

I'm going to say it bluntly and tl;dr right from the start: I don't think we should go further with the sets, not so fast in any case, because we are not actually even using the cards we currently have to their fullest, and in general it might be better for us to stop the set adding either right now at set 35 or at most just finish the DM series before the game reboot (basically DM-39, but I think its best to avoid adding 36-39 too for balance reasons), as this is closer to the DM we all kinda like and feel familiar with, and instead we should focus on other important areas, like organizing things, competitive play, talking about the game, articles and most importantly: community growth and activity! Being familiar and having a high understanding of the game is important in order to make all of these easier, and that is why we need to just stop somewhere.

Let's face the facts: this is a super dead, super cult following game, so spreading ourselves too thin is just going to be bad. And if anyone is interested in reaching/playing with more/full sets and all the cards, TCO is still there and its good enough at it (honestly the only thing TCO needed to become near perfect is a better card search). Also we need to fix and improve the OCTGN game board and card search before adding new mecanics and automations.


I am now going to go into deeper detail and more arguments and reasoning for why this way is better. All of this is based on my ridiculous amount of knowhow about card games that I just got by talking and thinking about all the time, plus all of the articles I never got to write, or the advanced gameplay and game design concepts I kept refining, so it feels odd for me too putting it out there out of nowhere or explaining why its like this, but it just is. You can skip this next part but I want to have it all here first as a basis of talking instead of going for too many topic pages and having distracting arguments.

I. Game Fun and Balance!

(Actually nevermind, theres still quite a bit to say here and my mind isnt into it to make it precise at the moment, plus I'd be making this too long.)

But I will say this much...


We HAVE 35 sets worth of cards but we do not actually USE 35 sets worth of card to their fullest, so what is then the point of adding yet more cards so that we have less reasons to use the ones we have? The regular users aside, what I see people build and play is VERY TCG or KP looking decks (even with old or bad cards) that they just kind of add newer cards into, and anything else is mostly metadecking from what Japan did at the time or their own homebrew creations based on throwing all the cards they want to use in a deck (i.e. ignore deckbuilding basics, matchups and such). And even the better players do this quite a bit. We are not yet doing everything the game is capable of, and certainly not more than what the Japanese could do with these 35 sets, even though we can surpass them (just like on KP).


Also, going further into the sets, even past 36, but certainly once DMR starts, the game is just going to get A LOT more broken and luck based and wombo combo and weird and most importantly confusing and hard to read, not to mention most cards and strats become useless and redundant. This is not the kind of challenge and burden of knowledge we really want in a very small community struggling for activity.

At least give me some time to build up the meta to where it should be...And at least some time for us to play with the proper ban/restrict list, lol.

[nerafim]

II. Community Growth and Activity!

This is a problem. It's a super dead offline card game that we play online (automatically reduced interest), that's been dead for too long, DIED AGAIN after it got hyped for a reboot which will confuse itself with DM from now on, and in an age when games and free distractions online are all over, forums as a means to support games are weakened, and on a platform where people can just wander off to other card games....Big problem.



The most activity and fun we recovered since it was dead, was in fact in the KP days which is why everyone is so nostalgic about it, but there were good planned reasons for why it got like that. It was a combination of both having the superior platform where to play, and convenient interface and so on, and the forums and the way the community was structured as a meritocracy and rewarding interest in the game (again, forums or a place to gather is important). Very strict control over the format and platform was really it, the only reason we got to have so much fun is because we not only super slowed down the sets, but we also stopped somewhere.


The plan for KP and KC, including why KP was coded a certain way (automations especially) was focused around it being a dead, cult following game so the idea was to have EVERYONE who played the game and enjoyed it when alive to come back to it and find it easily where they can meet other people and just randomly play with them. It wasn't just for the competitive aspect, it was also that noobs can just come and find other noobs to play with with decks they wanted, and have a chance to win. Therefore it was super important that the game remained something very similar to what everyone knew and remembered, hence just the first 17 sets. And hey, it worked, we got huge amounts of activity and competitiveness and fun game talks...


For the same reasons I am considering wether it just might be good to stop or hiatus ourselves at these sets for a while longer. We already went way ahead than 17 with the sets, but I don't think things are that weird and strange just yet, it's still VERY much like the same DM people are familiar with, just with twice the content. But all this will change very fast going forward.


The key to activity is offering people a DM they can relate to an enjoy playing, it always was, but which one is that DM is a problem that requires some brutal honesty really. I mean let's face it, that is why people keep going back to TCG, despite it being broken as f***, TCO already had several invasions of TCG players, sometimes that was all you could get. Others tried "Hybrid" to enjoy new things on an old more familiar habbit set, and so on.


Also if we stop here we also get a proper footing and niche into getting people interested in DM back...if we just move forward with the sets we will just be like a TCO, that maybe lags behind for a good while...But like this there is interest in a more "pure" or "nostalgic" DM format. Even people on TCO are showing interest, and for that matter TCG is still very much so played (much to the annoyance of people that were on KC and were glad to be rid of it) so I think all evidence points to being better if we stop somewhere with the sets.


With a more pure, simpler and familiar DM, we can also get back some activity from key areas: first Kaijudo players that might be interested in trying, and there were quite a lot of those. Secondly, even people from Japan that are interested in a throwback and vintage metas and such.


There is actual ease of advertising in just going "come play here because you can use Mad Romanoff again" or "Parasite Worms/Knights/Samurai/Nova Races decks are still good" and so on.

Plus I might have an extra something special to mix things up and make sure it works...So that's my outlook on things.

-Nera

[the_stellar]

I would like to have more formats, rather than just ocg. Tcg for a start, also phoenix saga(1-17) and save divine saga format. If we are keeping these formats, i can't see any problem in adding new sets

[Light]

What you say is correct. Set 35 is indeed a very good format, and probably the best one to stop at if we plan to do so. But personally, as a developer on the platform, I am motivated to make it as up-to-date and complete as possible. When I started work on the plugin, I did not intend for it to compete directly with TCO or other platforms, but rather to replace all of them and provide the best-possible authentic experience of Japanese Duel Masters, with all the goodness of automations and English card images. OCTGN can do that, and it can be done as a community effort thanks to it's open nature. This is something the other platforms cannot/couldn't offer. DMC is outdated, KP refused to update (before going down), and TCO is just a bad experience.

Personally, the prospect of new set addition is the one thing that makes me want to keep working and improving this plugin, even though I have been neglecting it recently. A fully updated duel masters plugin on octgn, with new cards every few months, will be truly 'legitimate' and can possibly attract a good player base, as it will reflect the one format that is officially supported somewhere in the world. That's my long-term vision for this.

So my suggestion, We should look for a way to preserve some or all of the 'legacy', set-12 set-17 and set-35 formats, while still allowing the developers to continue their work on new sets and upgrades.

[trickster]

I am fine with set 35, but i really like TCG because memories and i am sure for most of other duelist too, and i believe  tcg is not broken it just we discovered too much stuff and so on , same for set17 and for set 35  it is not that balanced its just we didn't explored it that much as tcg. and soon i am gonna break it if it will stay long.   ( if not me then someone else).
And about what DM i want to play ? 
Currently I will choose TCG or set 17  bcz most of us are familiar with it and every new player will wanna play that too cuz easy to learn, basics and stuff compared to so much complication in set 35 >.> and I agree going beyond set 35 will just discourage newbies, so imo as nitrox suggested introducing multiple formats in octgn can revive the game.
And monthly  tournaments and different competitions are necessary for activity and  progression.
YES we can go further when we will have a big community like 100+ active duelist.  
p.s. just my opinion. 

[nitrox]

Yeah...I originally wanted the separation of formats too, more activity that way. Even though the majority of new players will be around the lesser formats, it still seems to be a good step by step process.

[nerafim]

Jan 8, 2016 10:38:02 GMT Light said:

What you say is correct. Set 35 is indeed a very good format, and probably the best one to stop at if we plan to do so. But personally, as a developer on the platform, I am motivated to make it as up-to-date and complete as possible. When I started work on the plugin, I did not intend for it to compete directly with TCO or other platforms, but rather to replace all of them and provide the best-possible authentic experience of Japanese Duel Masters, with all the goodness of automations and English card images. OCTGN can do that, and it can be done as a community effort thanks to it's open nature. This is something the other platforms cannot/couldn't offer. DMC is outdated, KP refused to update (before going down), and TCO is just a bad experience.

Personally, the prospect of new set addition is the one thing that makes me want to keep working and improving this plugin, even though I have been neglecting it recently. A fully updated duel masters plugin on octgn, with new cards every few months, will be truly 'legitimate' and can possibly attract a good player base, as it will reflect the one format that is officially supported somewhere in the world. That's my long-term vision for this.

Mmm, if you are motived as a developer I can get that. Finish the project and such. All I can say in terms of development is that...well there are still plenty of things to update about the client in terms of game board and automations and such, so you still have stuff to do? But as a gamer would you really let go of some great things about this game that can only be experienced now, since you need other people for it? Or at least having your own vision is not necesarilly what others subscribe to, isn't it important even development wise to work with supply and demand and for the interface to properly execute the task (i.e. fit the game and such). Meaning what do most people expect when they think "I want to play DM somewhere"? Obviously OCTGN is better as a client, it's not a contest, but at the same time it does not actually "support a game", it just indexes it somewhere, we need way more than just that for growth, and KP did refuse to go forward but for reasons that payed off, clearly.

I don't care as much either way, because I will always build and think and play past metas and such, but for me that is easy, for others it's daunting or not even an option, and as a "competitive interest" this DM right here IS harder, to the point where I really don't think you can solve everything with deck building, just barely with playing. At this point I really can say I care mostly about what might be better for the community and player base as a whole.

Honestly, having just "get to full DM" as a finality because its the only legit thing somewhere out there IS like the clearest thing in this whole confusing mess that was this game and community's history. If we woulda just been there sooner or weren't constantly intrerupted then yeah we may have been better off. But it also feels like a breakdown or reset type solution, one where we maybe also let go of our "legacy" and lost of opportunities for fun. I mean we discovered and played better metas than the Japanese had with 17 sets on KP, and this can easily be done in any set block, even more so now. So there is that, and we can also use that to get interest from Japan over here...

I'm just saying...I don't think people out there go "I want to play this game that is huge in Japan" so much as they more so just go "I want to play this game I had fun with back then", and for that you need it to be easy to get into...Familiar, not with that many cards, and identifiable stable meta instead of a rapidly changing one, and so on.

I know its an unrealistic expectation to "not move forward" when its so relatively easy to do so, but I am just saying we should maybe wait here a bit longer, figure out the game fully, get more people to become experts or masters at it, so we can meet the new sets properly (remember than in Japan they spend 3 months on a single set, so the playerbase has time to adapt). We should focus more on growing our player base and creating content now, get all the people in on a DM they can relate to, and then move forward.

[Light]

Hmm, matter of new sets aside. If you have any specific suggestions for improving the platform, fixing inconveniences and bug reports; please list them here:
dmoctgn.proboards.com/board/2/bug-reports

I will consider about the new set addition and think about ways to keep the old game intact. New set block is not coming that soon anyway from the look of progress of things, and I will certainly consult before making any changes to the plugin.

[nerafim]

Jan 8, 2016 15:15:12 GMT Light said:

Hmm, matter of new sets aside. If you have any specific suggestions for improving the platform, fixing inconveniences and bug reports; please list them here:
dmoctgn.proboards.com/board/2/bug-reports

I will consider about the new set addition and think about ways to keep the old game intact. New set block is not coming that soon anyway from the look of progress of things, and I will certainly consult before making any changes to the plugin.

Yeah was going to get into that too, honestly I think we need a better board group for OCTGN dev also, but I just had to make this big general topic about it all first, and get other stuff out of the way. Was busy with like holidays and tournaments so far, or would have been on it sooner with my input on everything.

I also need to do the more in depth gameplay part of this in an article...Honestly that's what this whole topic hinged on, making DM's gameplay and where its at more clear, but had too much to say, hard to focus it at the time. Hopefully it should make the stakes and objectives clearer. Will try to get on it when I can.

But either way I think its better to get all the coding, automation and interface stuff out of the way now, before we start adding too many cards and we find that the interface can't handle various card interactions or mecanics.

[kurotamashi]

I'm in favor for having seperate plug-ins for different formats, the core formats being Set 12, Set 17, Set 35 and Set 39. One more format between 17 and 35 would be ideal to compensate for the huge gap but it might be too much work for the developers.

As for moving forward - i think Set 39 should be included. The reason being in the current meta Assaults aren't too dominant because of so much strong controls, T5 Heavy/corile, T6 Pit/mendosa, T7 olzekia/plague/lost soul and early game janits, falconer, yuliana, bloody etc pretty much kills most of the Assaults (not talking about grave evo decks). To top it off Mad + Meltdown and rose castle discourages most rushes too.

With Virginia, dandy, Mad, Heavy, Cyber brain, hanzou and falconers getting banned or restricted - Assaults decks will once again get a room to breath.

[nerafim]

Ok so this is long overdue and because I was busy and lazy it seems it's a bit late as the set is already here but here is the part to do with Game Balance that I promised I would write at a later time and I did almost finish it weeks ago but yueah..

Game Balance Set Delay

I guess its already here and it was kind of inevitable, but if possible I think we should stick to at least playing more on DM-35 one, especially competitively, i.e. for ranks and such.

And to some of the replies I missed since...

As for moving forward - i think Set 39 should be included. The reason being in the current meta Assaults aren't too dominant because of so much strong controls, T5 Heavy/corile, T6 Pit/mendosa, T7 olzekia/plague/lost soul and early game janits, falconer, yuliana, bloody etc pretty much kills most of the Assaults (not talking about grave evo decks). To top it off Mad + Meltdown and rose castle discourages most rushes too.

With Virginia, dandy, Mad, Heavy, Cyber brain, hanzou and falconers getting banned or restricted - Assaults decks will once again get a room to breath.

Actually, the exact opposite of this is true ;/...The set 33-35 meta was actually one of the heaviest most offense oriented ones to ever exist in DM's history, probably the biggest one of the whole game's history in fact, with repercussions for years/set block to come. I don't just mean what people actually played in Japan but secretly control/defense was still strong. I mean structurally, offense has the advantage in this meta (and I dont mean just DN rush and Mono Water only)...Half the listed cards are also stronger in offense too. We could go into details if you want but lets do that in their own topics.

And this is the reason why I wanted to keep it to set 35 because the offense oriented meta is both closer to the natural state of DM and what Bell/KP/KC tried to accomplish for the game and its playerbase, but also because it's harder for competitive play and most importantly it can teach players basics and such better. Also its closer in theme and feel to original DM.

The only reason this feels like "control meta" is because most people are just used to playing slow, and with my work keeping me busy aside, I wanted to at least raise up the skill of our player base before going forward.

[nerafim]

I'm in favor for having seperate plug-ins for different formats, the core formats being Set 12, Set 17, Set 35 and Set 39. One more format between 17 and 35 would be ideal to compensate for the huge gap but it might be too much work for the developers.

I would like to have more formats, rather than just ocg. Tcg for a start, also phoenix saga(1-17) and save divine saga format. If we are keeping these formats, i can't see any problem in adding new sets

So my suggestion, We should look for a way to preserve some or all of the 'legacy', set-12 set-17 and set-35 formats, while still allowing the developers to continue their work on new sets and upgrades.
Ok this I wanted to mention at the time too but it's a whole different big talk. The whole going forward hinges on this because yeah it looks like we can have it all, and going forward was kind of inevitable so we can do this and so lets and see what happens and all that but....We just don't have the right manpower and activity levels for it. ;/

There's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it, and there's a time to do it and a time to avoid it and I should have really said so sooner, my bad.

It's probably not that bad yet but not ideal also...We needed a stronger user base first imo.

But I wanted to talk about it in topics appropiate for it. Hmm..

[kurotamashi]

I get your point which is why many people are in favor of DM35 format to co-exist with the DM39 format. As for not utilizing all potentials of old cards yet, tbh yes we haven't BUT there's a good reason why. There are many cards that are good but they aren't good enough to stand a chance against the meta, specially since Hydro Hurricane decks were prevalent. Then there's the strong disruption - so we kinda leaned on most of what was good enough to stand a chance in the meta.

In this Saga the offense is just too damn good it's hard to control and rushes will almost be non-existent because the new cards. Which leaves us to Assault/Aggro/Beatdowns which seem to be flourishing by getting T5-T7 OP psychic creatures with OP abilities

[nerafim]

Apr 9, 2016 12:01:11 GMT kurotamashi said:

I get your point which is why many people are in favor of DM35 format to co-exist with the DM39 format. As for not utilizing all potentials of old cards yet, tbh yes we haven't BUT there's a good reason why. There are many cards that are good but they aren't good enough to stand a chance against the meta, specially since Hydro Hurricane decks were prevalent. Then there's the strong disruption - so we kinda leaned on most of what was good enough to stand a chance in the meta.

That's a common thing in DM however, and often misconcieved by people...DM was always like that where most things do not actually seem to be able to do well in the meta. That's because for most of each card/move/idea there's like only 1-2 ways to build the deck for it to actually be good. Honestly, I just see people make deck building and playing mistakes all the time, so no wonder "meta" is strong. Meat is always strong until people challange and change it.

DM is hard like that exactly because almost everything and any deck can be work and even be good, but at the same time they kind of don't really and you need more exact conditions that you need to line up (like matchups and reading your opponents, etc).